Check out www.VFXRates.com
Episode 90 — Interview with VR and MR Artist Patty Rangel
This is Allan McKay. Welcome to Episode 90! I’m speaking with Patty Rangel, one of the leaders in hologram technology, VR and so much more!
I’m really excited about this one. Patty is a really dear friend of mine. I’ve known her for 10 years, maybe longer. Patty is an amazing artist. I want to leave that as a bit of a surprise but I’ll give you a bit of a hint: Patty is one of the pioneers with holograms and is currently an Artist in Residence at the Arena Stage in Washington, DC. Her credentials are so amazing, every time you hear her name, there is a whole other level to her story. I feel privileged to do this Episode and to have her as a friend.
– She studied at NASA’s Singularity University.
– She’s collaborated on dozens of epic projects related to VR, MR, you name it!
Let’s dive in!
FIRST THINGS FIRST:
[-58:34] One of the biggest problems we face as artists is figuring out how much we’re worth. We go on job interviews and either shoot ourselves in the foot by charging less than we’re worth and getting the job — but indirectly leaving tens of thousands of dollars accumulatively over time on the table. At the same time you don’t want to alienate your employer by asking for too much.
I’ve put together a website: www.VFXRates.com. This is a chance for you to put in your information — your level of experience, your discipline, your location — and it will give you an accurate idea what you and everyone else in your field should be worth. This is something I’m going to continue to build and flush out over time.
The key thing is — I also want to hand you the tools to grow and learn:
– to negotiate better,
– to ask for the right amount of money in the right way.
The information is FREE! Check it out: www.VFXRates.com! Put in your information and you will be instantly notified with how much you should be charging per hour, as a VFX Artist.
INTERVIEW WITH PATTY RANGEL
Patty Rangel is a Virtual and Mixed Reality artist, as well as a leader in hologram technology. An MFA graduate of CalArts, she has attended the GSP Program in Exponential Technologies at NASA’s Singularity University. She is also a featured Technologist / Futurist of the USC World Building Institute FRONTERA project.
Some of Patty’s previous projects include: the Centennial Olympic Games, the Vancouver Olympic Games, the 2010 Shanghai World Expo and the Tupak Hologram at the Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival. Most recently, Patty has joined the Arena Stage in Washington, DC as the Artist in Residence.
In this Episode, Allan and Patty discuss the history of holographic technology, VR, MR, AI and other exponential technologies, as well as their application, multi-disciplinary usage and ethics.
Patty Rangel’s Website: www.pattyrangel.com
The Arena Stage Press Release on Patty Rangel’s Artistic Residency: http://www.arenastage.org/american-voices/resident-artist-program/
Patty Rangel’s Talk at the 2016 Immersive Tech Summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GuY7TUsv3w
Tupak Hologram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbrFmPBV0Y
[-57:06] Allan: Patty, you and I go way, way back and it’s really cool to finally get to chat about this stuff. I love this because I get to learn more about you. Usually, when we’re hanging out, we don’t talk much about work. But I’m intrigued by all the things you’re doing. Do you want to quickly introduce yourself?
Patty: I feel I’m mostly an innovator and a pioneer because when I’ve tried to answer that question before, it’s always been, “Well, what I do doesn’t really exist in the industry that I’m in.” I started in immersive Virtual Reality about 7 years ago, maybe 10. Being able to track the technology through different sectors from its first exposure to the world, coming out of the R & D labs and trickling down through Fortune 500, aerospace, medicine, and eventually entertainment. About 3 years ago, I was meeting with studios, now I’m meeting with theatre. So, I’m somewhere between a consultant, and an experience designer, a VR producer, I’m a holographer. I do a lot of things. To narrow it down, I work somewhere between design, management and production — using high tech. For me, it’s been a journey to see where things are going and how you can make steps moving forward and stand on the threshold of innovation and see what can be created from that. It’s always a process of integration and innovation.
[-55:14] Allan: So you have an epic amount of experience in so many different areas. At the same time, you’re an early adopter of technologies as they come to fruition. Do you consider yourself a bit of a futurist?
Patty: Well, I went to NASA’s Singularity University in 2011. I was part of the future studies in forecasting track. There were 3-4 students on that track, that year. In many industries what people call “futurists”, I call it: I just had early exposure to technology. If you know what technology is doing, it’s a bit easier to estimate what direction it’s going to go and what impact it’s going to make. It’s really about being at the beginning of the the inception of that technology and realizing what the possibilities for integration and market distribution are. That’s where you make the biggest impact when it hits critical mass. You try to figure out, “Is this disruptive?” It’s been an interesting journey.
[-53:57] Allan: I love it! That’s so freaking cool! In regards to NASA’s Singularity University, how did that come about?
Patty: It was fascinating and a complete surprise. I had to leave my job at that time. I was working with AD Concepts. A couple of months after I’ve achieved putting an avatar from the virtual world onto a holographic stage: It was three holographs coming in live size, and they performed on stage, with a live musician. That was the first time that integration was achieved, using multi-player gaming. Shortly after, Snoop Dogg and Producer Dylan Brown approached me about Snoop doing a tour with the Far East movement as a hologram because he couldn’t physically go; they told me about “a friend who might be interested in this”. So they brought in Dr. Dre, and he was talking about bringing somebody back to live — and that was Tupac. I had to leave AD Concepts as the Tupac deal was starting. I still kept in touch with the technical directors because it was so new to the industry, we had to figure out how they were going to get Tupac in rotoscope and who they were going to deal with. It was a whole industry coming together to make that happen.
I had this opportunity to go to Singularity on a 95% scholarship. Typically, it’s about $25,000 to go for three months! I just thought, “I don’t want to be 80 years old wondering what that would have been like.” I got to NASA and we had to live on base (so we had to go through their security check). We stayed in military dorms. We spent the entire time going from the dorms to school [in] one of the buildings. What was fascinating was there were actual NASA astronauts on faculty, telling us about their experience. Dan Barry has been to space two times, I believe, and he’s talking about what it’s like to be out there, about the robotics. All the people they brought in as faculty were top of the line, people who were at the threshold of innovation.
So we spent six days a week, 15-to-16 hour days, just learning, listening to speakers, learning about global grand challenges. We felt that sense of purpose. Eighty nine people from around the globe were brought to talk about global grand challenges that are very real. There are things that are impacting humanity, and we need to address them as a collective. I appreciated the way Singularity University opened up the ability to solve a problem on a global level to people as a crowdsource to type of innovation. In the past, we’ve relied on governments to solve problems on this scale. But for this, [they brought] the brightest minds from around the world and top experts in their field. It was multicultural, it was multi-disciplinary. I think when you approach any time of innovation with a multi-disciplinary approach, it cuts down on the red tape and the hierarchies.
After a month and a half of listening to experts, going to Google and Autodesk (some people got tours of NASA), people were put into team and asked to address a global grand challenge. All the team members had to listen to each other [even though not everyone] was an engineer or a programmer. Adding the “Arts” to “STEAM” has a lot to do with my experience at Singularity. For the first time in my life, I was able to participate in process previously had been open only to programmers and engineers. What it made me realize is: You can approach research and development from an artistic perspective. You can create rapid prototyping from an artistic perspective. You can ideate. Having an artistic director — or someone who has a marketing background — involved from the beginning of the process, and it can be dynamic; and it pushes engineers and programmers to think differently.
It was a breath of fresh air! I was inspired, yet it was very challenging. You had to deal with the dynamics of living in an enclosed space and dealing with pressures of [the fact that] these teams could actually become start-ups. These teams could actually become your future. That’s when everyone stepped up their game. The things that were discussed were beyond anything in the real world. No one was making fun of you for saying, “Hey, let’s build a space elevator!” People talking about quantum super-positioning, you have other people address poverty with blue tech! It was just a culmination of an experience unlike anything else in the world! I highly recommend it! When people go to Singularity and challenge themselves to start a start-up, that’s when some disappointments happen. You face typical challenges.
[-46:11] Allan: I can image how inspiring it was to be a part of that and also meet like-minded individuals who were all bringing their personal experiences to focus on bigger issues. For you, having experienced that, what was your biggest takeaway? Your biggest aha moment, or the most influencing person you learned from?
Patty: I would say the number one influential experience was a conversation I had with Ray Kurzweil about artificial intelligence. I was one of three students chosen to go to Google’s Artificial Intelligence Conference. One of the things I asked Ray was about the future of AI. So many people are afraid of it:
– What’s going to happen when this singularity happens?
– Would this artificial mind take over?
– Are we becoming the endangered species?
He said it all depended on the information people were putting out on the internet now. That is going to be the brain of the AI. It’s up to us to be aware that we are creating an intelligent entity, and its brain is going to be influenced by our data and metadata. Being conscious of how we put information out, how we use media and social media — it’s going to be our future. It’s holding a mirror up to nature and having a conversation that we don’t like, or the flip side of that — having a positive experience.
The second important moment was working with Dan Barry. We had a lab that had technology that was sponsored by all types of companies. In my free time, I teamed up with another student [who was a hardcore programmer]. I told her I had a vision for flying my avatar in Second Life using a brain computer interface. This goes back to collaboration and multi-disciplinary approach. I’m telling her what my vision is and she say, “Well, I think we can make it happen”. We went into the lab and started looking: Here is an emotive EEG Headset, and she went into Second Life and didn’t really know how to code but she learned the language. Before I knew it — this idea happened! And it was so mind-blowing to be in a multiplayer game, using a brain computer interface and not using a keyboard or a mouse! Especially flying! The simulation I was in was called Inspire Space Park, and it’s a bunch of planets and you can see other people… I mean, avatars. I was flying through space and could turn my head and see my avatar in first person rotation — and I started crying! I couldn’t believe this moment happened and it happened so quickly. We ended up presenting at at Second Life Community Conference in San Francisco, and it made waves. We had Philip Rosedale, the Founder of Second Life, come out to NASA. We showcased our work to him and he said he didn’t know it was possible.
That was the beginning of neuro-gaming talk, using motion capture for avatars. The second proof of concept I did before going to NASA was using the organic motion markerless motion caption stage in New York to puppeteer an avatar that appeared on a musion holographic stage in San Diego. And that had never been done before! We proved that you could do a performance in one city but puppeteer using a hologram in another city. Quantum super-positioning for a performance was born and it was possible. That level of Mixed Reality had never been done. It set us dreaming into what was possible. Could we do this in augmented reality glasses? This was before Google Glass. I talked to Ray about the Virtual Reality contact lenses [prototypes for which] I had seen at the University of Washington. If what I did on musion is possible in the future, this type of VR would be possible on VR or AR contacts. And sure enough! I was at Singularity in 2011. That year, Ray was hired to be the head of engineering at Google. That year, Babak Parviz was hired to join the Google [x] Team. It’s mind-blowing to think I was part of creation of that. There is a difference between saying, “We created a new product” and saying “We’re working in exponential technologies.”
The third biggest thing I remember from Singularity is really looking closely at that exponential curve. What does it mean? Back then, it was a theory. It was a curved graph [starting out slowly and shooting straight up]. I understood in theory what now, 7 years later, is happening in the masses. The end of that disruptive technology is accelerating time. People who say, “It’s never going to happen in my lifetime”, they’re thinking in regular, linear time. When you jump into an exponential curve, that means time is speeding up. All those [technologies] will be happening faster and faster. All you have to do is look in motion capture. Back in 2010, I had to go to New York and beg the President of Organic Motion to please let me run this test. I was pretty sure I was able to make it happen. The mo-cap system was $80,000. Just two weeks ago, I picked up a [wireless] Enflux Motion Capture suit — that I can wear underneath my clothes — for $300! And it runs on Unity, which means that the capabilities for gluewear are there.
– You can integrate it with facial motion capture,
– with hand tracking,
– you can put it into a simulation,
– you can output it into any type of projection system you want!
That’s only a difference of 6-7 years — and the drop in price from $80,000 to $300! From something that required an entire room of sensors to sensors that are wearable?! And you can use your iPad to program it! If that’s not an example of exponential technology, then what is?
[-35:48] Allan: That’s so amazing! Do you think that it’s the key individuals out there — innovators and leaders — that are paving the way for a lot of the innovation? Or is it more of a combined effort?
Patty: I think it starts with one person but then [it’s about] getting all the people together and pushing to pioneer it. That’s what’s making a difference. When I graduated from CalArts, I went to work with EON Reality which had one of 20 existing CAVE systems in the world. A CAVE is Cave Automatic Virtual Environment. It’s a one-million-dollar VR simulator. From there, I met other scientists that build the next CAVEs. First, the military, aerospace, the Fortune 500 companies had access to it. I was helping sell the system to Fortune 500. Later, in LA, the creators of Oculus Rift were saying, “Look at what we have!” I’ve tested it and I wasn’t too impressed.
I remember the first time I went to Two Bit Circus — which was about 1.5 years ago — there was a company in LA, they knew my level of experience and wanted me to check out their product. It was an HMD. I was a football player and it was photo realistic, first-person perspective. I heard my coach. We started running out the tunnel into an arena full of people — and I wasn’t motion sick. [I realized] we hit the Holy Grail of Live Action! For the first time, I felt that head-mounted displays could reach the level of presence of a CAVE. The million-dollar simulators that were only available to a few were now going to be available to the masses. This technology had the potential to hit critical mass and disrupt every industry. Which is what we are seeing happened now. That’s what creates change!
Some of the things I’m seeing created now are at the CAVE level. Now, the power of a CAVE can fit into my backpack and it could go with me anywhere in the world! Supposedly, by 2020 the milestone will be rolling out the contact lenses. At that point, we’ve addressed the hardware question. But the hardware has no meaning without the story. So the content we create is really what is the game changer because that content will be so addictive, so immersive! People will be living their lives in this, all the time. We have to address ethics and the policies of disruption.
I hadn’t seen that throughout my journey. Everyone is in a rush to disrupt. You have to be careful about the content you’re creating. Maybe work with the psychology sector to create modules that are actually beneficial for humanity and creating content that’s healing (as opposed to creating games that are only about war). It’s important to bring that to life and for people to realize that whatever they create — has a lot of power to influence people. With great responsibility comes creation. And that’s what’s being placed in the hands of people.
[-30:07] Allan: Right, right! For me, one thing I’ve thought about is Second Life. It’s interesting to see this other interactive world. Getting to know you was pretty much obvious you would embrace something like that. It’s a hint about where we’re leading: Having completely different lives inside that environment.
Patty: And also, for multiplayer gaming. It’s the reasons why people love it. I love it because it’s allowed me as an artist to visualize a project before it ever broke ground in the real world. I pitched the Shanghai World Expo [that] with Second Life I could draw something out and give it to my builders, I could play with environmental factors and then physics simulations in here as well. That is amazing that you can apply science within a simulation. And that’s what got me thinking: The power of gaming to do simulation based learning is the future of education. I know some people love Second Life [because] they have disabilities and [it gives them] their access to interaction with people. Other people love it for the social aspects. Other people are artist and they can get virtual gigs and get paid virtual money. My avatar, [for example], has been booked on more gigs than me in the real world.
[-27:14] Allan: I think that’s interesting too. I feel that each year we get closer to that total immersion. Now it is a point, people are making money on YouTube, or selling downloadable content, being able to develop within those worlds. I’m so intrigued to see where we’re headed in the next decade or two. What about AR [augmented reality] and MR [mixed reality]? I think it’s fascinating that it’s not just entertainment. Just today, I saw how doctors are being trained in panic situations, having a patient on the table who is suffering, and test them how they would react. I think it’s so interesting to see how things are pairing off into different areas.
Patty: Exactly! And now you see the value proposition in technology for people in architecture or sales people. It’s a tool for visualization and I think people are more apt to buy something if they can actually see it; or if it’s so user friendly, they can design it themselves and just make a call. Most people would think that creating — being a content creator — is impossible. But because of the advancements in technology and visualization tools — it’s letting people [make designs]. It’s pretty incredible how adaptable it is to people of different backgrounds and ages.
It’s also important for people like you and me. We’ve been around technology for a long time and we’re fascinated to see people from different industries find new uses for it. [For example], the costume designer over at the Arena Stage was asking the same question [about this technology]. Yes, there are other people already doing it. But it’s interesting that the tech people have been experimenting with this and now other industries are catching on; and it creates this interesting conversation. Different fields come together to work on different projects.
A lot of what I’m doing now at the Arena Stage is testing different technologies to see how they can be applied to a Mixed Reality performance stage. This is a perfect opportunity to see:
– How could we put these technologies on a stage if we have Live Action?
– Can you do virtual lighting?
– Can you do virtual sets?
– For production purposes, can you have teams from around the world collaborating in a virtual space?
– Can you visualize a set before it ever gets built, and not just as a model?
There is such a great conversation to be had creatively about what is possible and how you can mix the reality! Sometimes people say that it’s going to take away from real reality: People aren’t going to go take a walk and hug a tree, have normal conversations.
[-21:55] Allan: What about you? Did you always want to be in a creative space? You’re obviously someone who mixes a technical world inside a creative space. What the hell did you want to do early in life? Did you have a specific route you wanted to take? How did you get to where you are now?
Patty: The first thing I wanted to be was an astronaut. So it’s ironic that I’ve ended up at Singularity at NASA. It’s the closest I’ve gotten to that so far! But after I decided that becoming an astronaut would require a lot of science and math, I decided I wanted to become a theatre producer. My grandmother was a theatre producer and it was a big influence in my life. So much so that when I was looking at grad schools, was torn between CalArts and CalTech: “I really want to pursue computational astrophysics, but at the same time, I really want to be a theatre producer and I have all of this event production background.” I got a full academic scholarship for my Masters at CalArts, and ironically, in my third year, I took holography. And it was a professor named William Alschuler that changed my life.
At the beginning, I couldn’t understand anything because it was so scientific. The second we got to the lab, I made the connection: That’s what you mean by interference pattern. That’s what you mean by the different types of lasers we’re going to use. I fell in love with it. So much so that I secretly started offering to do other students’ homework. And eventually, I wanted as much time in the lab [as possible]. My skin on my fingers was peeling from doing photo chemistry. And this is real holography, 3D, no glasses. Eventually, my professor found out and told me all I had to do is ask if I could be his TA. [So I did.] He gave me the keys to the lab and said, “Go nuts!”
My Master thesis, even though I was in the School of Theatre, ended up being called HoloDome (Holography Dome). I figured that to meet their requirements, I would use the elements of design: I used their lighting designer, technical director, original music composition, created 3D sound design inside the HoloDome. I brought in their production team. I teamed up with a student who was a dancer and a musician, who did a piece on the outside of the HoloDome. And then, there was an animation designer who suggested, “We could do seven different animations to project all around. They could represent the seven colors of the spectrum.” It got very artistic and experimental, and it was the biggest inter-disciplinary collaboration in the history of CalArts. All of the Deans funded me, and I felt so proud!
I ended up showcasing in a space meant for the School of Art, even though I was with the School of Theatre. I had to defend my Masters and I said: “It’s art being integrated into science.” Which now, in my career, is STEAM. The process of making holograms is a scientific process that uses photochemistry. It does use science, but at the same time, I used all the different disciplines just making it a full STEAM approach. I told my mentor at the time: What I envisioned for my Masters thesis doesn’t exist yet. I envision holographic performers on the stage, holographic people with live actors, holographic sets moving around and the costs of productions coming down because I can change the scenic design on the fly with a push of a button. And she looked at me like I was crazy. I told her it would be possible one day.
Ironically, the first job I got after school was at EON Reality. I had an option to interview with the LA Opera. At the same, I met a scientist named Maurizio Seracini who uses multi-spectrum imaging for cultural heritage. He is actually a character in The Da Vinci Code. [The writer] Dan Brown met Maurizio Seracini. Maurizio — who used to be a holographer — chose the path of arts in science. What he does with multi-spectrum imaging is help with authentication, documentation and preservation of great works of art. And when he saw the holograms I was making, he wanted me to show them to some people in Irvine.
I showed up at EON Reality — with no experience in technology! — and see their CAVE system, and Holo Stage, a Holo Podium. My mind couldn’t even fathom that technology was even real! I was fascinated. The Chairman asked me about my hologram and I showed it to him. He was a big art enthusiast. I ended up bringing so many people to the showroom, and so many of my people started buying their technology, he said, “I want to hire you.” That’s how I ended up working at a company full of engineers and programmers. I was the only person with a degree in theatre production. I stepped into the CAVE and I realize that all that million-dollar hardware was boring after about 30 seconds. I told the Chairman, “This requires a story that will keep people engaged.” He started asking me about my ideas. I suggested bringing in avatars. The environment was too static (even the trees didn’t move). Why not add some physics to the simulations or social VR?
In my spare time, I would hang out with the techs. They would take me behind the scenes and show me how they built the CAVE systems, and I consider that my full blown PhD in technology education. Future integration was about how to put the content together with the hardware; and how to evolve it into something smaller, more portable and affordable. It’s been a beautiful experience! I’ve spent over 10 years of my life in the tech sector; and now have an opportunity to take those 10 years of experience in design and technology into what I absolutely love — which is THEATRE. I get to be in theatre as a trained theatre producer and designer; and I can play in both worlds. I can be in theatre and be a tech designer.
And it’s pioneering! It’s the first time Arena Stage has taken a leap of faith to create such a position, to allow someone who is not a playwright to come and do research and development for technology applications in entertainment. But if you look at their background:
– First regional theatre to win a Tony,
– The first to tour the Soviet Union!
It is the foundation of American theatre. They’ve been the first in many cases, so it’s not surprising that they’re the first to be able to expand their program to involve somebody with my experience. I think this approach is being adapted by other companies in the industry. It is because the arts and entertainment are starting to realize the importance of multi-disciplinary approach and working closely with the tech sector to create better solutions, and not just for the sake of money but for the sake of positive human disruption.
[-09:55] Allan: Right! I guess there is so much new tech coming out rapidly, all the time. Especially with filmmakers and gaming, the thing we struggle with everyday is how to immerse people and tell our story, and for our audiences to really experience it. I feel like this is a chance for us to [have] the audiences immerse and forget that they’re sitting in a theatre — but instead, be a part of it. What are your thoughts on that?
Patty: Exactly! And it’s about instead of doing all this research — trying to find someone to tell us what we can do — it’s stepping into the role of being the creator. If there are not many [experts] out there and you can’t find any information, it’s because you have to pioneer it! You have to create it. And that’s what’s happening: Don’t sit around waiting for someone to put a solution in your hands, but prototype it! Expand your mind. People need to start reaching outside of themselves. It’s not about being an expert in one field. It’s about being an expert in many fields. But at the core of everything, we’re looking for a story, something that will make people say, “I want to see more of this!” It comes down to the foundations laid out by Aristotle 2,000 years ago with the six elements of drama. At the end, it’s theatre [where] we’re trying to recreate life. It’s such an ancient art form, but it has the power to influence and shape people, as Shakespeare used it: “To hold […] the mirror up to nature”. What we need is for people to tell more of their stories, to tell us what their experience is. It’s not about how to use the technology. It’s about using the six elements to tell a story and become a creator, to disrupt responsibly and create positive change for the human species.
[-07:12] Allan: That’s so cool! I love getting to know more about you. Right now, you’re doing a lot of cool stuff. How did the project in DC end up happening: [your Artistic Residence at the Arena Stage]?
Patty: The current position, to go back to pioneering, [happened when] my mentor Doug Jacobs told me, “I can put you in contact with the Arena and you can pitch them the dream”. I think he was thinking it was going to be on a smaller scale. And I just went and pitched to the Deputy Artistic Director [Seema Sueko]: “There is a disruption coming, and we need to get ready for it, and we need to be at the forefront, and we need to start looking at different technology and how it can be adapted to stage and all the aspects of production.” I always thought what’s the worst that could happen. They could say no, and I’m right where I started. Or, they could say yes. I hadn’t [actually] thought about their saying yes — and then YES happened. I ended up getting the Artistic Residency for the Arena Stage, heading research and development, integrating technology into live performance. So where my mind is going with that is to be able to partner up with some of my tech colleagues I’ve known for the last 10 years. Everything from:
– motion caption,
– to multi-sensory systems,
– to integration into costume design,
– to integration into communications for production (or even administrative) processes,
– to portable VR systems that could travel the world and tell stories,
– to transfer knowledge to other people, in other regions of the world,
– to even trans-media in regards to marketing.
All of that is a matter of research and development. I’ve spent the last month and a half closing deals with my top tech partners. The beauty of the Residency, I spend 2-3 months in DC and I spend most of my time traveling and meeting with tech partners. It’s infinite possibilities! “Hey why don’t you check out some drones that can broadcast into VR?”, etc. I get leads all the time and I follow them! I’m more than happy to check out potential partnerships. I definitely have a budget and I can play people to play.
I really want to dive into content creation, especially with special effects. I think that is your realm, Allan. I think the magicians of your realm have a really bright future in collaboration with the theatre industry. That’s more to be discussed and seen.
[-02:48] Allan: That’s so awesome! I could talk forever about this stuff. I just want to say thank you for taking this time to do our talk. I’m excited about this. Where can people go online to find out more about you?
Patty: You can go to my website www.pattyrangel.com. Also, you can look me up at Arena Stage’s Mead Center for American Theatre in Washington, DC: http://www.arenastage.org/american-voices/resident-artist-program/
[-02:15] Allan: Thanks again for doing this! I had a blast. I’d love to do another one of these. I have so many questions!
Patty: Sure, sure, Allan. You know I love you and I’m definitely going to see you in Portland. And if people have questions, I’m more than happy to jump on another call.
I want to thank Patty for taking the time to talk to me and discuss all the amazing achievements she’s had. I’m really excited to see what interesting work she will be creating at the Arena Stage.
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