Episode 180 — Goro Fujita, PART II

 

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Episode 180 — Goro Fujita, PART II

Hey, everyone!

This is Allan McKay. Welcome to Episode 180! I’m speaking with Goro Fujita about his working for Facebook and Oculus Rift and how he got there. I’m excited for this one. This is Part II of my interview with Goro. (Please find Part I, focused more on VR, here: www.allanmckay.com/177/.) Goro has accomplished so much.

We will both be attending the IAMAG Master Class in Paris this year: https://masterclasses.iamag.co/. If you’re listening this before March, we’d love for you to join us and grab some drinks.

Let’s dive in!

FIRST THINGS FIRST:

[00:49] One of the biggest problems we face as artists is figuring out how much we’re worth. Typically, we go on job interviews; and when asked what we charge, we either shoot ourselves in the foot by saying we charge less than we’re worth and getting the gig — but indirectly leaving tens of thousands of dollars accumulatively over time, on the table; rather than actually asking what we should be charging. At the same time you don’t want to alienate your employer by asking for too much and leaving yourself out in the cold.

I’ve put together a website. Check it out: www.VFXRates.com! This is a chance for you to put in your level of experience, your discipline, your location — and it will give you an accurate idea what you and everyone else in your discipline should be charging. This is something I’m going to continue to build and flush out over time.

The key thing is: I don’t want to just showcase how much you should be worth — I want to hand you the tools to grow beyond that and learn:

  • to negotiate better;
  • to ask for the right amount of money in the right way;
  • lots of other additional tools!

The information is FREE! Check it out: www.VFXRates.com! Put in your information and you will get instantly notified with how much you should be charging per hour, as a VFX Artist.

[03:31] I’ve been putting a lot of thought into the Podcast and other content. I want to publish more content for you — and I’m really excited about this! It’s more of career based stuff, instead of just the visual effects training. I want to double down and help us, creatives, embrace what we do as business. In the past few years, I’ve gotten more notoriety for marketing, so I want to share that.

With social media platforms, I’m going to be publishing more aggressively as well. Over the past year, I’ve started using Instagram as well. I’m also updating my website a lot more: www.allanmckay.com. Moving forward, my goal is to do a lot more. If you aren’t following me on my platforms, you will be missing out on this content. I’m also thinking about Instagram’s Live TV and Live Streams.

If I’m going to put all this energy and money into my business, I’m going to be all in. This is why I’m announcing it now. Whether you want to launch your own studio or break out in the new year, learn about personal branding — there will be a lot of stuff coming out. I want to help as many people as I can. My VIP Insider List can be accessed at www.allanmckay.com/inside.

[1:37:35] Have you ever sent in your reel and wondered why you didn’t get the callback or what the reason was you didn’t get the job? Here is the thing: Most of us think that we can put our latest work on our reel, add some music — and get the job. A lot of us aren’t aware that the majority of reels sent to a studio are skipped through and sometimes never even watched in the first place.

Everything we’re taught about being an artist is wrong! Over the past 20 years of working for studios like ILM, Blur Studio, Ubisoft, I’ve built hundreds of teams and hired hundreds of artists — and reviewed thousands of reels! That’s why I decided to write a book from the perspective of someone who actually does the hiring. I want to:

  • Give you the formula to be the obvious candidate for the job;
  • Tell you how to build a reel and put it up on YouTube — that brings studios to you!

You can get this book for free right now! Whether you’re in design, film, tv or games, go to www.allanmckay.com/myreel!

INTERVIEW WITH GORO FUJITA, PART II

Goro Fujita is an Art Director, illustrator and visual development artist based in the Bay Area. He started his career working as a freelance character animator and visual development artist for various companies in Germany.

In 2008, Goro joined DreamWorks Animation as a visual development artist and worked on Merry Madagascar, Megamind, Madagascar 3, Penguins of Madagascar and Boss Baby. He left DreamWorks in 2015 and joined Oculus Story Studio in San Francisco where he art directed the Emmy Award winning VR experience Henry. Goro is also known for pioneering art in VR using tools like Quill and Medium.

In 2017 he joined Facebook Social VR to continue the development on Quill and to introduce the world to art in VR.

In this Podcast, Goro talks about his daily practice of speed painting, creating his own opportunities by working on short films, getting a job at DreamWorks and the importance of getting outside your comfort zone.

Goro Fujita on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/goro.fujita/
Goro Fujita on Instagram: @goro.fujita
Goro Fujita on Twitter: @gorosart
Goro Fujita at Deviant Art: https://www.deviantart.com/gorosart
Goro Fujita at CTN Animation Expo: https://ctnanimationexpo.com/goro-fujita
Dear Angelica on Oculus’ Site: https://www.oculus.com/experiences/rift/1174445049267874/
Goro Fujita on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/goro
Goro Fujita on Gumroad: https://gumroad.com/gorofujita

 

[12:27] Goro: My name is Goro Fujita. I’m an Art Director and Illustrator living in the Bay Area. I guess we’re going to deep dive into my past and how I got to how I am later on. But that’s who I am!

[12:42] Allan: Thanks, man! I was initially going to crack some jokes and introduce you as, “This is Goro. He has two arms.” When I first met you told me there was only one image of you on Google Image. Which is huge considering you got Mortal Combat!

Goro: You know what’s sad though? We’re getting to an age when we can’t crack those jokes because no one knows Mortal Combat. I had a meeting with some young kids and [they had no idea what that was].

[13:26] Allan: I was just curious about how you started you career. Did you always want to be an artist? Some people have had a linear trajectory and the support of their parents. Other people have worked as a wine sommelier and then went into art.

Goro: I was creative from the get-go. I didn’t know if I would be an artist or a musician, or an animator; but the path was going to be in something creative. I was born in Japan but grew up in Germany. I’m fully Japanese. My dad used to be a musician. He used to be a horn player for the Hamburg Symphonic Orchestra. That’s why he moved to Germany. He moved back to Japan for good. After I was born, however, he got a call from Yamaha to be a music director. So we headed back to Hamburg. I’ve lived there for 25 years. My mom was also very musical. My parents used to sing with us every single day. It was something I wanted to pursue, but then my brother was so much better at music. That was my hurdle. Do you have siblings?

[16:35] Allan: I’ve discovered that I had 3 half-siblings. But that’s a whole other story.

Goro: Well, when you have an older brother, you do not want to be in the shadow of that guy. You want to shine. The parents will compare you. I played trumpet, piano and guitar. I had musicality, but my brother was great at everything. He would play everyday for hours on end. He was able to play anything instantly. I thought, “How am I supposed to catch [up with] that guy?” My parents were singing a German song with him. My mom and dad began to sing the chorus in harmony. My brother would sing the regular melody. At that moment, my brother was 3 years old. He stopped singing when he heard the harmony and said, “This is what you meant by ‘music’, right?” We actually have that moment recorded.

I was looking for something I could beat him at. What is it? I was drawn to art and drawing. I thought maybe I would be a graphic designer. That was the dream back in the day. But my brother was great at drawing as well. That’s when I got in touch with art. I would draw in high school [for which] I got yelled by my teachers a lot. But it really caught my attention in 1999 when I saw Victor Navone’s Alien Song. Do you remember that?

[20:02] Allan: Yeah, I’ve talked about it with Victor on my Podcast: www.allanmckay.com/104. It was the first thing to go viral before there was such a thing as “viral”.

Goro: Exactly! Yeah, that’s cool! I remember seeing that animation and being blown away. I was a senior in high school and it was a game changing moment. I downloaded it from Napster. I don’t think YouTube was that big yet.

[20:40] Allan: YouTube wasn’t around until 2004. It’s older than that. You’re right, YouTube wasn’t around for a long time.

Goro: Victor Navone’s piece struck me. I needed to understand how to do that. I started researching what 3D animation was; but in Germany, it was hard to find anyone who was doing it. Toy Story came out in 1995, but that was what grownups did.

[22:18] Allan: I am envious of people these day who can learn this in high school. Back in the day, I couldn’t even explain it to my mom.

Goro: Absolutely! But Toy Story felt unreachable. I didn’t even consider that I could do that. But Alien Song felt reachable. I might be able to do this! I looked like something one person could do. So I started researching. I was trying to find Animation Master. Back then, you had to know the guy who knew the guy who had the software. Animation Master was not used by anyone. 3DS Max and Maya were more popular at game studios.

I started to look for schools in Germany that taught 3D animation. I found a very good art school in Hamburg. They had basic classes in Maya. But I wasn’t accepted. I think I was a bit cocky about my skill sets. Because I was one of the better people at drawing in high school, I thought I was good. I didn’t know that I sucked. When I got rejected, it opened my eyes that I wasn’t a big deal at all. I felt really safe that I would start my career, but the very first door closed. It taught me to stay humble and work hard toward my goals.

There was this magazine and there was a school [advertised] in it called the German School for Digital Production. I looked at the ad and they specialized in 3D animation since 2000. It was 2001 at that time. It was a private university and so it wasn’t free. It cost 45,000 USD per year, but that’s really unreasonable by German standards because you could get an education for free at a non-private university. There was also a school called the Film Academy. It is the best film school in Germany. I didn’t even think about applying because you needed to have work experience. It’s hard to get into. I thought that a private university would be my best bet, but how could I afford it? I asked my parents and said, “I have to learn 3D!”

[28:33] Allan: [In regards to your parents], did they see 3D as a real career at that point?

Goro: I think they would’ve supported me with anything I wanted to do, even if they didn’t understand it. But financially, they couldn’t pay for that. I was determined, so what I did was after high school was start a start-up that sold computer hardware. We would sell it to friends and companies. We made a ridiculously small amount, like $60 per month. But then my business partner said, “Would you be interested in PHP programming?” I barely knew HTML. He had a full-time job doing that. Our start-up company contracted out to investment fund companies. I started learning how to code and it gave us a decent amount of money. I was able to make a quarter of my tuition in a year. For a year, I did that. While I was doing that, my boss asked if I would redesign their website. I thought that was cool! It was a great jumpstart for me. I had to do calls with vendors which was terrifying because I’m an introvert. I would design our booths for conventions. For a year, I did all that to earn my tuition.

My mom saw that I was determined. She told me there was a bit savings from my grandmother. Turned out they could cover three thirds of my fees. And I already earned one quarter. And my parents offered to support me for the cost of living. So in the spring of 2002, I started at the German Film School and began studying animation.

[33:13] Allan: I think it says so much when you have a dream and because a door got shut, you got more determined. A lot of people shut down with the first resistance. But with you, it was about figuring out how to go do the hard work. You had to learn something else that wasn’t easy. That’s really brilliant! You learned programming and had to call people. It’s awesome!

Goro: I think the one thing my mom says about me is, “Once you’re obsessed with something, I can’t hold you back!” I am going to try and try to get what I want. It was my last resort to find a way to finance my fees. I had this inner drive. I knew that eventually it would get me to some place better. I wanted to learn how to do Victor Navone’s thing.

[35:26] Allan: So you jumped into college. You must’ve made some friendships there with people who shared your passion.

Goro: A lot of people ask me if it’s necessary to go to a university. I think that it’s not necessary if you’re self driven. However, what universities give you is not just the teachers but a competitive environment to grow. If you’re by yourself, it’s hard to measure where you are. There is no benchmark for how good you really are. And if you measure against other people’s Instagram, you see it from a different lens because people only post their best work. But if you’re in an environment with people who are a little better than you, you have a healthy competitive environment. And then, you have a chance to meet teachers [or mentors] — and you only need one. For me, it was a guy who was 2 years below me and he changed my life. It wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t go to school. A university enables you to find opportunities you wouldn’t get otherwise; but you still have to put in the work regardless. No one is going to give you a job unless you work very hard.

[38:46] Allan: I completely agree! Going to a college, you have to assume that typically that the people who are teaching are necessarily the best because there is only a certain price that a college can afford. Typically, curriculums take longer to turn around. But the advantage is that if you aren’t disciplined enough on your own, a structure of a university can work better for you. And of course, that piece of paper is not going to get you a job at Pixar. It’s your reel and your relationships that are everything.

Goro: Absolutely! Networking gives you access to people. But when we grew up, Allan, we didn’t even have the internet so it was hard to make ourselves visible. People have a lot more access and visibility these days, which makes finding jobs much easier. Back in the day, how do you put yourself out there?

[40:20] Allan: Back in the day, you couldn’t create a Facebook account and get 80K followers.

Goro: Not really, huh? When Facebook started in 2005 (I don’t remember)…

[40:45] Allan: I remember working at Blur in 2006 and I remember hearing about it on tv. It was still just for Harvard, I believe. I’d never heard of it by that point.

Goro: I didn’t start my Facebook account until 2010. You were an unknown person and you had your own network from school — which is really important. For me, it was a punch in the face: how bad I really was at animation! When I started, the school accepted 20 people per term. But there weren’t too many people paying that money, so it was fairly easy to get in. You really just needed to get in with money. Because I put a lot of own money into it, I was super determined. And of course, there were some rich kids who didn’t appreciate the opportunity. But I was super determined. There was one guy Marc. I looked at his drawings and they looked like work of comic book artist. There was a few people who were really good. I got this anxiety because I didn’t want to be left behind. It was a great lesson for me. The first term was all about frame-by-frame animation, traditional style. I worked really hard. Since I started school, it was on average 16 hours per day, 7 days a week. The school was pretty crazy. We had to do 12 short film projects in 3 years which really prepared me for the world outside. They also taught a lot of software packages.

[45:00] Allan: I just had a meeting in LA with a bunch of software guys. We caught up on 25 years of CG industry. We talked about every software that isn’t around anymore.

Goro: On the 3D side, we learned Maya, Softimage, 3DS Max. Every term was dedicated to one major software package. So it was a crazy overload. It was crazy! And then we had to do these 12 short film projects. At some point, everyone had a breaking point. I actually ended up in a hospital because I pushed myself too hard. The school was located West of Berlin, in a tiny town. There is nothing there. There was one Olympic Village which turned out to be our best live action set because it looked haunted. On the other side of the school, there was a gas station with a McDonalds which was not very healthy. What this extreme curriculum did for me is prepare me for the real world production. The deadlines were crazier than outside. We had a guest professor telling us it was 10 times harder outside. I went off, “You have no idea what we have to do!” He apologized. I knew it couldn’t be that hard because I was pushing myself to the limit. I’m glad all of that happened during school. I learned the lesson to never push myself that hard. When I started my first job, I felt like things slowed down even though it was in advertisement.

[50:58] Allan: One of the things we have in my FXTD Mentorship — is have this sink-or-swim approach. The first three weeks, we learn to script and code. We set the bar really high and from there, everything is easier. Maybe that’s a good lesson with what you’re talking about. By pushing the limit, there isn’t this shock when you go into the real world.

Goro: It’s like The Hunger Games. I think there is some truth to that. However, if I had to design a curriculum for the school, I would probably add some downtime in between. It was just draining, draining, draining. Even if there some successful people coming out of the school, I would still make some changes. The school did shut down in 2008 because it couldn’t sustain itself as a private school. But I think I was there during their prime time when the school blossomed and there were so many films coming out of it! It was a great experience! I wouldn’t trade it even though I did break down.

[53:44] Allan: I want to mention that your financing your own education is such a valuable thing. Down the road, you wouldn’t take a $10 course seriously because you had to sacrifice so much for your education. I think that’s so critical! It was a motivator to never take it for granted. Another thing you talked about is surrounding yourself with people who are better than you. Again, to have that comfort of being the greatest in a group — does you a disservice. [If you surround yourself with people who are better than you], it pulls you up as well. I think it’s always better to not cater to your ego but cater to your growth.

Goro: That’s a great segue to a side story. This guy Stephan was a guy 2 years below me. Then was this rumor about this guy who painted in Photoshop. For me, digital painting was not a thing. Back then, I thought I would paint better with a mouse. But then Stephan started at our school and these rumors started. I looked him up. The school was so small, you’d end up knowing everyone. So I found him and introduced myself. He was a super humble guy. I asked him to show me how to paint in Photoshop and he opens this beautiful a painting of War Craft. I remember my jaw dropped to the ground. If I looked at that painting today, it would look okay. But back in the day, it had this magical glow to it. That’s burnt into my retina to this day! That’s when I asked him to teach me how to do it. Stephen told me the first thing I’d have to do is use a Wacom tablet. He told me to I needed this thing and to spend a few hours.

I instantly went to my desk and painted my first painting: This female character sitting on a rock in a forest. It was my first horrible painting, but I was super proud of it. Stephan looked at it and all he said was, “Huh.” I told him to give me some critiques. Basically, there were no fundamentals. That hurt but I took the critique. He told me to practice and he introduced me to daily speed paintings. They were 30 minute paintings to improve one’s skills. Basically, it’s a daily exercise. That’s when I started: In March 2004. I still wanted to be a character animator, but learning how to paint was a side gig. I had no trouble doing it everyday. I became obsessed with it. Everyone I talk to gets inspired for three week. Half the people drop out after 3 weeks. But most drop out after 3 months. Because if you paint everyday, you don’t feel your improvement and people get frustrated by that. What I tell my students is: You cannot go out and have fun if your pool of knowledge is still small. To be able to increase the level of your knowledge, you have to increase your frequency in studying. The more you study — the better becomes your art.

I decided I would paint the crap out of it. So I would paint every day, for at least a year. I didn’t skip any days. I got so obsessed I would skip parties. I was super scared of skipping a day. I would stay in and do my painting. I would skip movies and paintings. Around my fortieth painting, I went back to Stephan. I was a painting of a jungle with a guy who was holding a spear. Stephan asked me if I used a reference. I said I didn’t. He said, “Now we’re talking!” From then on, he would spend 15 minutes a day to talk about my paintings. That was my first mentor. Little did I know he would change my life forever! If didn’t meet him, I would still be painting in German and I would have never taken this odd route. I kept doing my paintings after I graduated. I got over 1,500 paintings. I didn’t find it as necessary anymore.

Those daily paintings opened a new door for me. I was still very much determined to become an animator. When I graduated in 2005, and that’s when Blogger became popular. That’s when I started posting stuff online. Before Blogger, I was on CG Forums. 2003-2005 was the time for forums.

[1:07:38] Allan: Highend3D was around forever since the 90s. CG Cafe, I loved that! But CG Talk was very mainstream.

Goro: There was this underground movement and all the people who posted back then are now Art Directors — and they’ve become my friends. I couldn’t believe they were posting with us in that forum. After the forums went away, it became less about the community itself. It used to feel like family and you would give each other notes. We had a really deep connection through the art and through the speed painting thread. Sometimes, I reminisce about the past. Unfortunately, those dynamics have changed.

There are benefits to Instagram. Now you get visibility for your own page. But it was a magical time back then. Through that, you expanded your network. By the time we graduated, I never considered that speed painting would be my profession. There is this dumb misconception that if you didn’t study it — it cannot be your job. There was not benchmark for my paintings. My first job was to be a character animator. Some freelance jobs asked for concept art. I wouldn’t take them until Stephan recommended I just do it. That’s when I started taking those jobs and I was able to do them. It gave me more confidence but not enough to make it my profession.

[1:12:40] Allan: That’s awesome, man! In terms of your career and moving into working, how did VR come into the picture.

Goro: I think before that, we should talk about how I got to DreamWorks. Coming from Germany, it seemed pretty impossible to do. Basically, I was an animator in Germany. I always wanted to go overseas. Back in 2005, my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. As it progressed, it seemed she was getting better. I was getting more confident I would be going overseas. I was applying at DreamWorks, Disney and Blue Sky, but I never thought I would get a reply. I went to South Korea and landed a job there as an animator. They couldn’t figure out how to get me a visa because you needed 5 years of experience. I didn’t know if I should do it. During that time, my mom got worse and I thought it wasn’t a good time to leave. I ended up staying in Germany and be there for my mom. I had to support the family.

As her cancer progressed, one day I had this dream about a short film I would be working on. While I was working in Germany, I met this guy who asked me to work on his short film called Descendants. He wanted to get Whoopi Goldberg to do the voice for it. It sounded really good, but one catch was that he didn’t have any money. I said I would consider it. I dreamt about the credits of the film and I saw that it was in memory of my mom. She passed away in April 2006, but before she did, I knew had to be involved with this film because of my dream. I had a gut feeling about it.

I told my friend about it from school. We wanted to do a film on which we would be strictly animators. I called and asked him to work on the film. He said he would love to work on it, but he couldn’t leave his full-time job. A month later, he called and he was in because he left the job. The stars started to align. We ended up getting Whoopi Goldberg. It was amazing! I put all my money into this project to the point where I was bankrupt. My friend also lost all his money and I felt so bad that I dragged him into it. It was unbelievable! We pushed through. He had no trouble finding a job right after we finished. And this [short film] lead me to DreamWorks. It’s almost like my mom paved the way.

The year she passed away, I printed a hard-cover book called The Art of Goro; and it had my best paintings. It was a gift for mom. He called me and said, “This is remarkable!” I didn’t even consider that it would be a book that I would give to my mom. But later on, I thought that it could be a pretty strong portfolio. It felt like the path was already paved. DreamWorks called me and a few months later I was hired in the Art Department. I feel like all the elements came together at the right time. Because it wasn’t intended for it to happen, it felt super special. I felt like these were signs from my mom: Apply for your dream job — and everything will be fine. It’s crazy how everything turned out. That’s how I landed a job at DreamWorks in art.

My confidence was super low because I never studied art. I remember when the elevator doors opened and I saw the Madagascar 2 poster, I was freaking out, “This is the level I have to paint at?!” Then I had to remember to trust myself and that they hired me for a reason. This was a studio I wanted to work at. When I started, I was in speed painting mode. In Germany, you get one attempt at something because the budgets were so small. At DreamWorks, I was working super fast until my production sup came in and told me to slow down. When I started spending longer time on my pieces, they started looking like the pieces on the wall. I was able to match the quality they were presenting. I ended up working there for 7 years. It was a time I will never forget.

[1:26:09] Allan: I think you’re right! It’s intelligent going in freaking out a little bit. The ones that go in cocky — are the ones that have something to worry about.

Goro: You should always stay grounded. I tell my students to never rip pages from their sketchbook. Own it! It’s what keeps you humble. Don’t distort the reality.

[1:27:06] Allan: A good example is: When you speak on stage and you screw up, you feel like in a way, you have the opportunity to work with it. Allowing your brain to make a mistake teaches your brain to deal with it.

Goro: And you learn from it. It’s a recipe for success to learn and grow. But then you remember what not to do. DreamWorks was a great place. I worked on movies like Madagascar 3 and Penguins of Madagascar.

[1:28:18] Allan: What were doing doing primarily?

Goro: It was vis dev. Sometimes, I even did character design although getting that task was terrifying. During that time, the first 2.5 – 3 years was magical. But then I started taking it for granted. It couldn’t wear this quickly. I wouldn’t feel about excited about work anymore. That’s when I started giving myself challenges. I would ask to do some set explorations in 3D; or motion graphics to show effect design, for reference. I started giving myself difficult times. And then I started feeling that fire again. I had a failure during Penguins of Madagascar where I couldn’t get the perspective right. It was because I didn’t know how to draw perspective. I’ve always relied on Maya. I ended up ordering a bunch of books and teaching myself.

[1:30:51] Allan: It’s like going to work somewhere where I can’t use my shortcuts. I can’t do 3D without them!

Goro: Exactly! I started actively attacking my weaknesses. That lead me to new opportunities: I ended up designing all the displays for Penguins of Madagascar. It was like a little action film with spy mood. I ended up designing all of those screens as well. That was so fun! I was able to design them and things that I did would go into the movie, not just as a concept. It was great! That lead to designing the end credit for the film in stereo. I learned how to work with a stereo camera. That’s probably one of the proudest things I’ve done at DreamWorks. My brain was trying to kick in and tell me I couldn’t do it. That’s another thing I do: Always say yes to opportunities and challenges, even if you’re scared of failing.

[1:33:09] Allan: Definitely when you’re scared of failing!

Goro: And don’t wait to say yes or your rational brain will take over. I started doing that in school and it really helped me get out of my comfort zone. I still feel that way. I say yes before my rational brain speaks.

[1:33:52] Allan: I had that moment recently! But then I always end up having a big smile on my face because I have to do it. The more you do things outside your comfort zone, the more growth you experience. If you do the things that keep you comfortable, you’re never going to get that growth.

Goro: And also the fear makes you perform better. You cannot mess it up and it makes you more alert and receptive.

[1:34:50] Allan: It’s Rocky 3.

Goro: Absolutely! Rocky has my favorite quotes. It all comes down to taking the challenge on. If you’re scared, it means you have room to grow. Penguins of Madagascar was the one that made me the most proud because I overcame lots of challenges. I was also there from the beginning to the end.

I hope you enjoyed this Episode. Next Episode, I will be back with the Harmon Brothers who create commercials and wrote a book From Poop to Gold. I was a fan of them long before they came on the Podcast. It’s a really cool Episode. I will also be putting out a video version on YouTube.

Like I said, I’m about to dial everything up. Until then —

Rock on!

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